Belonging Project Podcast

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Hi,

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and welcome to The Belonging Project Podcast,

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where we explore what it truly means to feel at home in ourselves,

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our communities,

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and our work.

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So,

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have you ever had that nagging feeling that you don’t belong,

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that somehow,

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despite all your achievements,

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you’re just waiting for someone to call you a fraud?

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If so, you’re not alone.

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And what we often call imposter syndrome is something that so many of us experience.

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Yet, what if we told you that it’s not actually a syndrome at all?

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Today,

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we are reframing this conversation and my guest,

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Leila Ainge,

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is here to help us rethink about imposter syndrome as imposter phenomenon.

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I love the term.

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And we’re going to explore why this shit matters,

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how imposter feelings intersect with belonging,

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and more importantly,

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how we can move from self-doubt to self-acceptance.

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Hi, Leila.

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I’m so happy to have you here today.

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It’s a pleasure to be here.

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Thank you for inviting me on.

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Absolutely.

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Thank you so much.

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And I would love to start with a few words about you, if that’s okay.

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Would you mind telling our listeners a little bit about you and your work?

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Yeah, absolutely.

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So I’m a psychologist and my research centers around women entrepreneurs.

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I got me looking into how women

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working communities and I looked at imposter phenomenon and the idea that women

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didn’t feel that they belonged or were frauds,

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all of the usual stuff that sat there.

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I also have a career as a management consultant.

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I do a lot of project management and I’m currently doing my PhD.

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Wow, I love this.

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So it sounds like you’re at the intersection of,

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you know,

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very important projects and work for you.

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I love that.

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Thank you.

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Yeah, very busy, I think is the way I would describe it.

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But certainly there’s definitely a curve and a theme to where my work’s going.

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Having worked around lots of other business owners and entrepreneurs during the

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COVID years,

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I think that’s what kind of piqued my interest in this whole idea of community

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belonging and imposter.

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So that’s really where my research sits and where it’s going.

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Absolutely and you have a podcast as well.

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I do, yes.

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I have a podcast called Psychologically Speaking and I did that because when you do

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research as a psychologist in an academia kind of world,

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The expectation is that you publish research into a journal and a lot of the women

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who’d taken part in my research,

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they’re not reading academic journals,

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they’re listening to podcasts and I just wanted to make all of that research

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accessible and they’ve been part of that journey.

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I recorded it into a podcast.

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And then once I did the first podcast,

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I kept getting questions from people saying,

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you’re going to do another.

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So I started another season.

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And this season, I’m just exploring lots of different things.

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So we’ve been looking at productivity, body doubling, coaching, all sorts of stuff.

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But it’s a joy.

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I really enjoy kind of delving into it.

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into that psychological reason why we behave in the way that we do in our work environments,

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whether that’s a traditional office or an online community.

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Absolutely.

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And I love your podcast.

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As you know, I’m one of your listeners.

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And I really appreciate how you’re putting all your research into very accessible,

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short type of format information.

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That’s really, well, I guess it’s how I learn, how I digest things, how I reflect.

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And so it’s been very helpful for me.

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And it’s very, it’s very down to

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Yeah, very down to earth.

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I very enjoy your style.

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And that’s, you know, where I’ve actually heard for the first time the term imposter phenomenon.

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You did an episode fully on this and I very much enjoyed it.

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And when at the end of it,

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I was very much,

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okay,

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I really want to carry on and explore further with Leila.

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So I have to invite her onto the Belonging Project podcast.

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So here we are today.

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We are, we are.

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It’s really interesting because I was quite curious that people didn’t know the

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phrase imposter phenomenon.

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I think I’ve always known it as imposter phenomenon.

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Because in the literature and in academic circles, that’s what it was called.

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When it was initially researched,

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it was a phenomenon that women who were at the top of their game in the 1970s were

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sitting in front of a couple of psychologists and going,

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but I feel like a fraud or I don’t see the success I actually have achieved.

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And that’s why it was called a phenomenon.

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I think over the last 20 or 30 years,

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it’s been a product of its own success in that syndromes really stuck.

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But the thing that really irks me about that is that syndrome means that it’s

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something that’s wrong with us rather than phenomenons that are much more

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contextual approach to it.

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And it’s more accurate because actually it’s not just about the woman or the man.

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There’s a whole host of things happening there.

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So,

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I really like that phenomenon title and I’m urging everybody to use it because it

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just feels a little bit more inclusive.

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And I think it makes us curious about,

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you know,

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how we can start to deal with those feelings and cope with those fortunate things

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that happen to us.

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Absolutely, absolutely.

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You’re completely spot on.

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The word syndrome just gives it a clinical or medical type of feeling or background.

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It’s like there’s something to be cured, right?

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What have you noticed in this language shift that you’ve been using in your work?

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How does it help?

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I think it helps because when you start to,

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when you use imposter syndrome,

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it’s all about how do you combat imposter syndrome?

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What can you do?

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What should you be doing?

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How do you improve yourself?

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And there’s some really interesting research out there at the moment,

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which really talks about how

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Women are sold more self-help tropes than men.

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We’re told we need to improve more than men.

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And from a feminist perspective,

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part of me just wanted to push back on that and go,

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it can’t all be about the woman,

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right?

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So as I’ve explored this and started to move away from the syndrome,

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what it’s actually enabled us to do in coaching sessions is to say,

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tell me what your work context is like.

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What is work like for you?

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You know,

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almost taking that individual to sit as an observer to their workspace and say,

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how does it look and feel?

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What’s going on?

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What’s the culture?

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You know, and then you start to get to the heart of community and belonging because I.

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It isn’t just about the individual, it’s about what they’re experiencing there.

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So,

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I think it’s a really subtle shift,

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but it’s so performative in terms of that coaching relationship.

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And what I wanted to do with imposter phenomenon research was to give coaches

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different ways and tools to explore fraudulent feelings with women,

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especially,

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that didn’t result in women feeling that they had to fix themselves.

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I’d rather they go and challenge something that’s not working for them and say,

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actually,

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I need a bit,

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I need positive feedback more often or actually it would be great if I felt that I

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could put my hand up and make suggestions because I don’t feel that at the moment.

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When we can shift to being able to say what’s wrong, I think that helps more.

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Absolutely, absolutely.

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And I’ve heard you mention, you know, women and men.

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What’s the research telling us?

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Are there differences between men and women and how they approach the imposter phenomenon?

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I think that the literature is really difficult to detangle around this for a

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number of reasons.

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One, imposter phenomenon or syndrome has been researched in lots of different ways.

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So there’s a couple of main scales that are used.

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The Clance and Im scales,

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the two psychologists that came up with it,

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have a particular type of scale.

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And it was developed based on their initial research.

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It tends to ask the same type of questions around the individual.

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I think that has been used in many different settings.

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It’s been used with men and with women.

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But things that we don’t really know, for example, is truly how many people experience imposter.

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And I’m saying experience rather than suffer from.

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And that language around it’s something we experience it as a collective.

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rather than it being something wrong with me.

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We don’t also know whether the current constructs of imposter and the ways we might

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ask the questions,

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are they developed enough to look at the modern world of work,

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for example?

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So are they asking questions around about me that were based on questions 20, 30 years ago?

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The really interesting thing is that we have these scales.

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They’re used quite generously in psychology.

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There was a really good review a few years ago that said,

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actually,

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they’re all measuring slightly different things.

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And that’s unhelpful from a scientific perspective.

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So I think there’s some work to be done there.

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In terms of men and women and do they experience this phenomenon in different ways,

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I think absolutely they must do.

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Because if you look at the world of work,

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men and women experience things differently because of things like patriarchy,

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capitalism,

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feminism,

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you know.

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inequity, stereotypes, all of that stuff.

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But that doesn’t mean that men don’t experience imposter phenomenon.

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I think what I’m hearing through feedback on the podcast and my research is that

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men are saying,

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I can relate.

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I can 100% relate to that.

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And actually,

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there’s a toxic positivity around male leadership that men perhaps,

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that’s a context that they have to live with that women aren’t living with.

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So,

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Perhaps they feel they have to uphold systems and structures they’re not quite

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fully behind because that’s the way it’s expected.

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So it’s a really interesting pot to kind of go and stir.

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I think what I wanted to do with this research is to say,

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I think it’s time we move that research on.

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I think it’s time we start looking at the construct,

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time we started looking at what we’re calling it and what we’re actually measuring.

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Are we measuring the right things?

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Absolutely.

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What do you think we should be measuring?

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What would be helpful to measure?

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So I think we need to bring in some organizational measures,

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especially if we’re going to use imposter for places like nursing and teaching.

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So if you look at the research, it’s been used in nursing and teaching a lot.

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So teachers feeling like imposters and nurses that feel like imposters.

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And it’s intriguing because I think if we then started to say,

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what if those questionnaires included questions about the work environment,

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not just the individual,

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I wonder what kind of answers we’d get.

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So I’d really like to see the research head in that direction.

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That would be quite interesting to see.

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Yes.

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And just coming back on something you’ve mentioned there around the vocabulary that

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we use to describe our experience.

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I guess first off, I very much resonate with this, describing our experience, right?

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So the word experience, I think, is key.

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It does perhaps…

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It does tell us that any of us, well, at least that’s what I feel.

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It’s an experience that any of us can actually have at some point.

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This being said,

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I’m curious to see if you’ve come across anything in your work or research that is

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telling us that at some point in our life or career,

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we are more prone to experience imposter feelings.

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Yeah,

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so I think if we look at the people that I spoke to who were mostly women,

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mostly women who’d had a business for maybe seven years or more,

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so they weren’t new entrepreneurs or business owners,

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women who were on average in their 30s and 40s.

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had children, had, you know, a university education.

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So by all intents and purposes,

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these are professional women who were well established,

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well educated and have families.

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It was interesting that that experience of imposter often increased as they got older,

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that it came in waves.

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And some of the wonderful language women used when they spoke to me in the research

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interviews used energetic language like whoosh and waterfall and waves.

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And it really speaks to this idea that the experience of imposter phenomenon,

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a bit like stress comes and goes and it can build up.

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So perhaps there’s a difference between fleeting moments,

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what we would call a state of anxiety or imposter phenomenon versus our…

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psychological need for belonging, if you like.

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So,

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really,

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I think the interesting link here is if you think about sociology,

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we have this idea of social capital.

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And social capital is this idea that by being connected to people,

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we get opportunities or we can benefit from opportunities.

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Putnam, who put that together, came up with bridging and bonding ties.

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So your bridging ties are the things like between me and you,

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for example,

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we have connected through a network.

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So we’re not exactly in the same work environment, but we’ve connected.

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So we’ve got that bridging tie.

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And then you could say after today,

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we’ve got a bonding tie because we’ve deepened our relationship by getting to know

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each other a little bit more.

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The interesting thing is that has been re-characterised as what we call an

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intrinsic belonging as the bridging and an external belonging as the external.

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And this idea that…

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We might have a need to belong to certain groups and categorize ourselves as an

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entrepreneur or a professional or scientist or a doctor or a teacher.

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But we also then have fleeting experiences and periods of time where we more or

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less feel that we belong with groups.

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And motherhood is absolutely one of those.

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And I think quite stereotypically for women,

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we go through these quite major life transitions where you’re suddenly perhaps nine

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to five worker or you own your own business.

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And then you’re thrust into neonatal classes, baby classes, dropping a child off at school.

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you know,

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for any caregiver that we’ve got women and men who are going through caring for

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their parents,

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this sandwich generation.

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So,

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I think these life events,

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it might take some of that stability of our belongingness and our communities and

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connections and it changes it quite significantly.

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So, I think that’s where my interest in

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networks and entrepreneurs really kind of came from because I was noticing that

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people gravitate towards communities.

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And especially during COVID, we saw that people didn’t have that physical touch.

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They moved into online spaces.

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They wanted to emulate that and create it.

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But I also know that a lot of people don’t always feel 100% connected to the communities.

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They do self-select to be in.

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Why is that?

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You know, where does that belongingness come from?

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And I think a lot of this then

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we can start to explain some of that behaviour through some of the things that

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happen with imposter phenomenon.

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Why do we feel like a fraud?

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Why do we feel like we don’t belong?

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What’s the context?

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How safe do we feel in that space?

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Absolutely.

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And would you say that there could be some groups, some identities that would

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tend to experience more of those fleeting moments of imposter feelings.

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Absolutely.

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Yeah.

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I mean,

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I think the standout article for me for imposter when I was doing my research

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wasn’t an academic article.

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It was an article on HBR and it was called Stop Telling Women They’ve Got Imposter Syndrome.

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And it was really written from the perspective of marginalized voices

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and black women in business and how actually when we say that the women the woman

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has a problem we’re starting to ignore some systemic issues around inequity so we

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do know that women as a marginalized group or

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a group that is treated in unequal ways.

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We know that black women,

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women who were migrants,

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women who probably come from families where they’ve moved into professional careers

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from maybe working class backgrounds.

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You know, there are lots of different layers there that we could probably say.

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we think that there are people who might experience imposter phenomenon more deeply

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than others because of the shifts in context that they’re moving from and to.

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So I think it’s quite curious.

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And again,

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when I’m saying that we need to ask questions of organisations and context when

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we’re asking people about imposter with scales,

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that’s something else to bring into the mix,

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isn’t it?

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There’s been some really interesting research around

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young black boys in schools and their experience of imposter phenomenon.

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So I think we’re starting to see more research around,

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you know,

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different marginalized groups and stereotypical ways in which we’ve always looked

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at imposter.

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That’s very interesting.

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And perhaps here thinking about the language that may be used in schools,

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but also in organizations,

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you know,

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Raising stars, rock stars, right?

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So those would be words that perhaps would be given as a positive reinforcement in some schools.

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And then in some organization,

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you would hear the word expert,

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expert,

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expert everywhere or born leader,

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those type of words that are coming up.

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would they also lead to feeling like an impostor if we don’t resonate with those

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words or if we don’t match the definition?

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I think absolutely it’s a really good example and if you think about culture and

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your own values so individually we all rock up into the world with our own values

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that come from you know our own

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experiences as children and into adulthood.

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You might join an organization,

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spend a lot of time there,

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and then maybe you move to another job.

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And I think that’s when people most notice company culture the most is when they

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move from their first job to their second job.

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And that comes up in coaching sessions with my clients quite a lot when we’re doing

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career transitions.

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I think cultural values can be really interesting in helping us understand what we

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perceive ourselves as and not.

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So,

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it highlights what we’re comfortable with,

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what we’re not comfortable with,

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what feels that sense of we-ness.

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So,

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in terms of social identity theory,

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which is a psychological theory,

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that is the idea that we obviously we’ve got our own personality,

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but we also have this social identity that’s linked to the group we’re in.

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And we’re not just in one group.

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We’re in many groups.

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So you’re in a work group, you’re in your friendship groups, you might be in a sports group.

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But when you’re in that group,

(00:20:56):
you think of yourself as we,

(00:20:57):
not I.

(00:20:58):
And that sense of we-ness comes from feeling that you’re aligned with the values of

(00:21:03):
the group.

(00:21:05):
If you don’t feel very aligned with the values of the group and some of the

(00:21:09):
language that’s used,

(00:21:10):
it can be really uncomfortable.

(00:21:15):
It can cause discomfort to people.

(00:21:18):
I think I’ve experienced that.

(00:21:20):
I’ve worked with lots of different companies and been a consultant for many years

(00:21:24):
and done a lot of project work.

(00:21:26):
And there are some companies you go and you think, yeah, this is my vibe.

(00:21:29):
I feel like I gel with this team.

(00:21:32):
There’ll be other companies where I’m like,

(00:21:34):
okay,

(00:21:34):
I can do the job,

(00:21:35):
but I really,

(00:21:36):
these are not my people.

(00:21:38):
I don’t feel part of, I’m not part of the we here.

(00:21:41):
I feel like me coming in to do a job.

(00:21:45):
I think people are very aware of that.

(00:21:47):
I think people sense that when they’re moving between different social spaces.

(00:21:52):
And sometimes it takes time to feel like you’re a member of a group.

(00:21:56):
There’s initiation and stuff that happens.

(00:22:00):
um but you can also be a member of a group one day and then not feel like a member

(00:22:04):
of a group the next day so this difference between you know that human um trait of

(00:22:11):
belongingness that we have the need for belongingness is quite um you know kind of

(00:22:16):
level throughout our lives but that state belonging that can change say if you

(00:22:23):
for example,

(00:22:24):
you suffer bereavement and it massively impacts your worldview,

(00:22:28):
maybe it was a parent or something,

(00:22:31):
then it may be that for a while you actually feel a bit disconnected from your

(00:22:34):
friendship group if they’ve not been through what you’ve been through.

(00:22:37):
So, there are loads of

(00:22:39):
little things there that I think that we can start to unpick and say yes that would

(00:22:43):
explain why some language in organizations or in some spaces or some communities I

(00:22:50):
just kind of go oh god that’s not me or oh wow yes they’re speaking my language yes

(00:22:55):
yes yes absolutely and

(00:23:01):
You’ve touched on cultural values and the impact culture can have on this as well.

(00:23:07):
Would you say that, do you see that subcultures normalize

(00:23:13):
imposter feelings or even self-doubt more generally more than others.

(00:23:17):
Yes, definitely.

(00:23:19):
So,

(00:23:19):
one of the really interesting things that happened with the imposter phenomenon

(00:23:23):
research is women were describing to me how they used language to navigate really

(00:23:31):
complex

(00:23:32):
social spaces online.

(00:23:34):
So,

(00:23:34):
in the online space during lockdown,

(00:23:37):
loads of communities popped up and they were all using different languages to

(00:23:41):
describe themselves.

(00:23:42):
So,

(00:23:43):
you’d have some that would like use terminology like girl boss and others would be

(00:23:48):
much more reserved

(00:23:50):
lots of different language and depending on how you feel about certain types of

(00:23:53):
language it would probably dictate whether you joined that group or wanted to join

(00:23:59):
that group also then in those individual groups groups have their own norms and

(00:24:04):
values so some groups might just really encourage people to put everything out

(00:24:10):
there and have a venting space and to say yes well you know you can

(00:24:14):
be really vulnerable here, it’s a safe space and people might do that.

(00:24:18):
You might have other spaces where that just isn’t encouraged or whether people put

(00:24:23):
on a professional veneer or perhaps it’s a space where there is a lack of

(00:24:28):
psychological safety and people are just quite reserved.

(00:24:31):
So I think a lot of that plays into it as well.

(00:24:36):
Absolutely, absolutely.

(00:24:37):
Yes, yes.

(00:24:41):
And it’s interesting how,

(00:24:42):
you know,

(00:24:42):
I guess here again,

(00:24:43):
we go back to how the language matters,

(00:24:47):
how much language matters,

(00:24:48):
how much it could actually have a correlation to do we belong?

(00:24:55):
What’s making us feel that we belong?

(00:24:58):
I feel often, at least for me, it goes back to do I feel that there is alignment in some

(00:25:07):
of my core values.

(00:25:08):
I’m not expecting all of them to be aligned.

(00:25:11):
I think that probably would be,

(00:25:12):
I don’t know,

(00:25:13):
unrealistic,

(00:25:14):
but at least to a certain extent,

(00:25:17):
there is that alignment and this can change as well.

(00:25:21):
It’s really interesting.

(00:25:23):
I think that the studies start to show when we look at social identity studies,

(00:25:28):
they start to show that it’s not just being in a group and taking part and being a

(00:25:32):
joiner in that makes you feel like you belong.

(00:25:35):
And that’s really interesting, isn’t it?

(00:25:37):
Because it feels counterintuitive.

(00:25:39):
I feel like we’re told from a very young age,

(00:25:42):
be a joiner in,

(00:25:43):
take part,

(00:25:44):
you know,

(00:25:45):
do your best.

(00:25:46):
And we’re told that fosters belonging and community.

(00:25:50):
Actually,

(00:25:51):
some of the more recent research shows that a sense of belongingness needs to exist

(00:25:57):
to feel that you’re part of a community.

(00:25:59):
And you could turn up to every single event that a community puts on or every

(00:26:03):
single Zoom call and still not feel like you belong there.

(00:26:06):
So we know that that belongingness is…

(00:26:09):
almost separate to that I suppose what makes it really challenging from a

(00:26:13):
psychological perspective is that there’s no real consensus on how to measure

(00:26:18):
belonging and I’m sure you’ve come across this in all of your conversations with

(00:26:22):
various guests you know there are loads of different ways to conceptualize

(00:26:26):
belonging whether you’re a psychologist a sociologist or a business person you’ve

(00:26:30):
got your own frame of reference for what you mean by belonging and we seem to be

(00:26:35):
measuring lots of different things and

(00:26:37):
are we measuring the trait or the state is a really good place to start there as

(00:26:41):
well because state belonging changes so much and so frequently.

(00:26:45):
Yeah.

(00:26:47):
All right.

(00:26:47):
I have a question.

(00:26:49):
So changing gears, switching gears a little bit.

(00:26:53):
Are there any benefits of feeling this imposter phenomenon?

(00:27:00):
Yes, I think absolutely.

(00:27:02):
So if we then start to say this isn’t just about you,

(00:27:07):
actually,

(00:27:07):
there might be something else going on there.

(00:27:09):
I think that allows us to be curious about,

(00:27:11):
well,

(00:27:11):
if I’m feeling this way,

(00:27:12):
others might be feeling that way.

(00:27:14):
And it’s always worth speaking up and perhaps challenging the status quo.

(00:27:21):
And so if you think about that language you’re talking about,

(00:27:23):
you know,

(00:27:24):
if there is language that we’re not comfortable with,

(00:27:26):
you know,

(00:27:26):
there’s really easy ways to subvert language use is by introducing new words and

(00:27:30):
phrases or calling it out.

(00:27:32):
So I think the helpful thing about recognizing imposter phenomenon in the first

(00:27:37):
place is just to,

(00:27:39):
you know,

(00:27:39):
I want to empower people to say,

(00:27:40):
right,

(00:27:41):
be

(00:27:42):
feel empowered to recognize it, but not to blame yourself.

(00:27:47):
See what else can be changed or tweaked and moved.

(00:27:50):
And I think that’s a really positive thing that can come out of imposter phenomenon.

(00:27:55):
So,

(00:27:56):
if we start thinking about challenging the status quo,

(00:28:00):
thinking about what we can tweak,

(00:28:02):
there is an element of transforming that imposter experience into growth,

(00:28:09):
right?

(00:28:11):
Definitely.

(00:28:12):
And then if you look at the other things that imposter phenomenon can do for us in

(00:28:16):
terms of a benefit of getting to know ourselves.

(00:28:20):
And I think you talked right at the beginning around self-acceptance.

(00:28:24):
One of the interesting themes in my research was this quote that came up and one of

(00:28:30):
my participants just said,

(00:28:32):
I miss her,

(00:28:32):
I miss me.

(00:28:33):
And they were talking about themselves.

(00:28:36):
When I started doing imposter research,

(00:28:38):
I expected comparison to be very central to all of the conversations.

(00:28:44):
This idea that women might compare themselves against other women really often and frequently.

(00:28:51):
As it happens, they are comparing themselves

(00:28:53):
against other women,

(00:28:54):
but mostly themselves,

(00:28:56):
a younger version of themselves,

(00:28:58):
or perhaps even an idealized version of who they should be.

(00:29:02):
So I think when we can start to recognize those imposter phenomenon experiences,

(00:29:07):
I think it’s a good

(00:29:10):
phrasing or tool set in coaching sessions to be able to say let’s bring us into the

(00:29:14):
here and now who are you right now let’s forget the past let’s pause the future but

(00:29:19):
who are you right here right now what do you need right here and right now and what

(00:29:25):
is this space giving you or not giving you so i think that’s a powerful

(00:29:31):
question and a point of curiosity that phenomenons of feeling like a fraud can give

(00:29:36):
us and again it’s just it’s just flipping that narrative isn’t it and how different

(00:29:41):
that feels to oh god i’ve got to work on my confidence i mean that’s really

(00:29:45):
difficult to do what do we mean by that absolutely and it’s often a container for

(00:29:53):
actually something that might be deeper or if we’re able to

(00:29:59):
crack open that container, right?

(00:30:01):
We’re able to bring some light in and see it in a different way and perhaps in a

(00:30:06):
way that we’re able to verbalize more or to give more resonating examples and get

(00:30:13):
in a place of,

(00:30:14):
okay,

(00:30:14):
I actually can challenge this.

(00:30:17):
I have the means to do so and I will do it, right?

(00:30:24):
Totally, totally.

(00:30:26):
I’ve really enjoyed researching imposter phenomena.

(00:30:29):
I think one of the things that I’ve enjoyed the most is the idea that we’ve come

(00:30:34):
out of the research that happened with women over lockdown with a better

(00:30:39):
understanding of what that phenomenon means contextually and that we can just ask

(00:30:45):
different questions so that we’re not prescribing solutions that actually feel like

(00:30:52):
sticky plasters over a bigger technology.

(00:30:56):
And that, for me, feels like what psychology should be doing anyway.

(00:31:00):
You know,

(00:31:00):
what’s the societal benefit for us blaming women for something versus the societal

(00:31:06):
benefit for us saying,

(00:31:07):
God,

(00:31:08):
this doesn’t work for lots of groups of people.

(00:31:09):
And actually,

(00:31:10):
it’s even worse if you’re marginalized or,

(00:31:13):
you know,

(00:31:13):
from a minority group or whatever.

(00:31:16):
So, yeah.

(00:31:17):
that really drove me forward.

(00:31:19):
It continues to drive me forward in all of my research is why I’m here.

(00:31:24):
Absolutely.

(00:31:24):
And thank you for sharing that.

(00:31:28):
I really appreciate you sharing the insights that you got out of the research,

(00:31:33):
but also about your own drives into this topic.

(00:31:37):
So we see how having

(00:31:41):
coaching conversations or,

(00:31:43):
or conversation and dialogue about how you’re feeling,

(00:31:47):
um,

(00:31:48):
how is this imposter experience coming up,

(00:31:53):
um,

(00:31:53):
for you.

(00:31:54):
But when we are alone,

(00:31:55):
um,

(00:31:56):
sitting on our,

(00:31:57):
you know,

(00:31:58):
by ourselves with those feelings,

(00:32:01):
what would you say is a helpful tool accessible enough to get us out of that space

(00:32:07):
and into a more productive self accepting space?

(00:32:11):
Yes, I think some of it is around language, maybe around asking ourselves some questions and

(00:32:19):
There’s this thing around when we’re trying to achieve goals that if we use I statements,

(00:32:25):
they’re not as helpful as you statements.

(00:32:30):
So if I’m to say to myself,

(00:32:32):
I can do this versus you can do this from a coaching perspective,

(00:32:37):
we know that in sports,

(00:32:38):
the you statements work really well.

(00:32:41):
So what you might do if you’re having those goals,

(00:32:44):
kind of consistent thoughts in your head.

(00:32:47):
And this is something that’s quite prevalent with imposter phenomenon is those

(00:32:53):
cyclic thoughts of self-doubt.

(00:32:56):
One way to kind of move out of that would be to ask yourself a you statement to say,

(00:33:00):
what do you need right now,

(00:33:02):
Leela?

(00:33:03):
Or what do you need?

(00:33:04):
And use your own name.

(00:33:05):
What do you need?

(00:33:06):
Rather than what do I need to change?

(00:33:09):
And it’s just a simple reframe there.

(00:33:11):
But I think when you say, what do you need?

(00:33:14):
It leads to the, well, what have I not got right now?

(00:33:17):
And you might fall back into that kind of triangle of core needs that Maslow’s talking about.

(00:33:24):
You know, if you’ve got food, warmth, safety, that kind of stuff.

(00:33:28):
Maybe there’s something quite obvious lacking.

(00:33:31):
I think the other thing that happens with imposter phenomenon is we talked about

(00:33:35):
that energetic wash of feelings,

(00:33:36):
that waterfall that people call imposter,

(00:33:39):
and it can really come on like a wave.

(00:33:41):
When we’re experiencing an emotion quite strongly,

(00:33:46):
we’re in that state emotion of feeling it,

(00:33:50):
it can be quite hard to unpack what am I feeling and why and where did that come from?

(00:33:55):
So again, just sitting back and going, what do you need right now?

(00:33:58):
It’s such an anxiety dampening question to ask yourself and such a simple one,

(00:34:05):
you know,

(00:34:05):
you don’t have to have the answers.

(00:34:06):
It’s just a probing thing to do.

(00:34:09):
And I think that question can sometimes feel like a hug.

(00:34:16):
Yes.

(00:34:16):
Yeah.

(00:34:18):
Giving us that moment of

(00:34:21):
Okay, heart to heart, with myself, right?

(00:34:23):
What do I need?

(00:34:24):
Yeah,

(00:34:27):
grounding,

(00:34:28):
quite grounding and very much bringing everything back to basics,

(00:34:33):
perhaps in a moment where we might feel a little bit too much in our head,

(00:34:38):
bringing it back to our heart.

(00:34:41):
Definitely.

(00:34:42):
I think when I wrote up my research,

(00:34:46):
I was encouraged to write some practitioner points at the start of it.

(00:34:50):
So, what can people take away from this research?

(00:34:53):
And I said,

(00:34:53):
well,

(00:34:53):
actually,

(00:34:54):
it’s a set of coaching questions here that moves us from a high emotional state

(00:35:00):
into reducing that emotion and the feeling and decentering it from us

(00:35:06):
moving it out and being curious and and we know we know that’s a really good thing

(00:35:11):
for us to do in a coaching space so um I was quite excited to share that and and

(00:35:18):
the evidence really comes from those conversations because you know the women I

(00:35:22):
spoke to had the solutions um for every woman I spoke to who said yes I’ve

(00:35:27):
experienced this they also were able to tell me

(00:35:30):
and how I cope with this is by doing x y and z and and actually they’d been able to

(00:35:36):
use some of these techniques when we talked about it in the conversation they were

(00:35:41):
reflecting on it and going oh actually when I do that it’s not as bad and it was

(00:35:47):
almost like they were realizing for the first time that they have learned to cope

(00:35:51):
with that feeling of imposter phenomenon

(00:35:55):
And that is such a great moment to capture, right?

(00:36:05):
Yeah, absolutely.

(00:36:06):
Thank you so much, Leila, for sharing all those insights.

(00:36:10):
It’s been a pleasure to deep dive into this and to

(00:36:14):
I think to explore this other side of the imposter, right?

(00:36:19):
It doesn’t have to be negative.

(00:36:21):
It doesn’t have to be dragging us down.

(00:36:24):
What are we learning out of being in that moment, sitting with that imposter phenomenon?

(00:36:30):
Thank you so much, Leila.

(00:36:32):
Really enjoyed our chat.

(00:36:33):
Thank you so much for having me on.

(00:36:34):
It’s been a pleasure.

(00:36:37):
You can follow the podcast on LinkedIn at The Belonging Project Podcast.

(00:36:42):
You can also hit subscribe and stay up to date with our episodes.

(00:36:46):
And do feel free to get in touch with me on coaching at fiorentzarossini.com.

(00:36:53):
Thank you again and see you next time.